Recently in B Category

My flirtation with sour beers continues unabated. I haven't quite reached the sad level where I'm so addicted to acetic flavors that I'm rubbing vinegar on my gums in my spare time, but I like to think that I've gained something of an appreciation for well crafted sour beers. Most recently, I've been blown away by the likes of Rodenbach Grand Cru, Russian River Supplication (a beer I'd had before, but which really blew me away upon revisiting), and Marrón Acidifié. That being said, I still find sours to be a bit of a mixed bag for me... I'm guessing that as time goes on, I will gain even more affinity for the various sour styles, but for now, I'm still stuck in that experimental stage.

Hanssens seems to have a reasonably good reputation, though I get the impression from reading folks like Beerbecue that they tend towards the sweeter, more puckering, acidic side of things. Let's see how this Oude Kriek (beer with cherries that's spontaneously fermented and "matured for over three years") fares:

Hanssens Oude Kriek - Pours a bright red color with a couple fingers of pink head. The smell features that trademark sour twang, some earthy funk, and maybe some of that oak character. The taste starts very sweet and very sour, lots of fruitiness (cherries, obviously) and funk, mellowing out a little as the taste evolves. Mouthfeel is well carbonated but appropriate. The sourness packs an acidic, funky punch; it's certainly an eye opener. Overall, a solid beer, but not something that transcends my typical thoughts on kriek beers (certainly better than the easily found Lindemans Kriek, but that's not saying much)... B

Beer Nerd Details: 6% ABV bottled (375 ml caged and corked). Drank out of a tulip glass on 8/31/12. Label sez: Lot nr: G.

Can't say as though I'm all fired up to try more Hanssens beers, but this was certainly a cromulent entry in the sour experiment. Still, I'd rather seek out some of the better regarded Belgian sours (or even american Maestros like the folks up at Cascade, if I can ever get a line on those).

Apparently weasel poo is not involved with this beer at all. Not that it normally would be a key ingredient, but the last beer I had in Mikkeller's Beer Geek series of imperial stouts did have that improbable ingredient... and it was spectacular. This time around, in place of poo, we've got hops. Unfortunately, I think my bottle had been sitting around for quite while when I bought it, and thus I suspect the hop profile was somewhat diminished:

Mikkeller Beer Hop Breakfast - Pours a thick black in color with a couple fingers of light brown head. Smells of light roast, caramel and chocolate, with some piney hops apparent (but not quite as prominently as I was expecting). The roastiness comes out much more in the flavor, along with some coffee and bitter dark chocolate in the finish (the additional hops may also have been a contributor to the bitter finish). Not quite as much hop flavor as I was expecting, but it's clearly more of a hoppy beer than the Brunch Weasel. Mouthfeel is definitely less full than the Brunch Weasel, thinner, but not watery or anything, with a dry finish. Overall, it's a nice beer, but I wish I had a fresher bottle. I'll give it a provisional B, but it could go either way.

Beer Nerd Details: 7.5% ABV bottled (500 ml). Drank out of a tulip glass on 8/31/12.

Mikkeller remains one of my favorite breweries, so I'm sure you'll see some more of their stuff popping up here soon. I think I have a red wine barrel aged stout from them somewhere in my cellar, which I'll probably bring out to play when it gets a little colder out...

I'm not that big of a fan of Allagash Black, a Belgian-style stout that sorta mashes up stouts with Belgian Strong Darks... and makes me wish I had one or the other. Don't get me wrong, it's a fine beer, but not one of head-exploding glory like I expect from a brewer of Allagash's caliber. The solution to this conundrum? Put it in old Jim Beam bourbon barrels, of course! Alas, that treatment doesn't seem to have done much to improve my feelings on the beer:

Allagash Bourbon Barrel Black - Apologies for the craptacular picture (It was dark!) Pours a black color with a couple fingers of light brown head that puffed up higher than the lips of the glass. Not picking up a ton in the nose (stupid overflowing glass), but a little musty roast and a hint of bourbon are there. Taste has lots of those roasted malts and plenty of boozy bourbon. There's some complexities emerging as I drink, but it all feels a little sloppy. Mouthfeel is less carbonated than regular black; a little richer and creamier, but also much boozier. This isn't quite as balanced as I'd like. I'd gladly drink more of this, but it's a little disappointing and messy. B

Beer Nerd Details: 10% ABV on tap. Drank out of a snifter on 8/17/12.

Well, I guess they can't all be winners (in terms of both Allagash and bourbon barrel beers), but it's not like this one was horrible either. I'm always looking forward to new Allagash specialties and lord knows I can't resist bourbon barrel aged beers...

Continuing a look at the tiny new breweries in my area, I stopped by Neshaminy Creek Brewing Company this past weekend. Another homebrewer turned pro story here, Neshaminy Creek opened doors in early June (coinciding with Philly Beer Week, which seems to be the trend for these local breweries) and has slowly been making a name for themselves.

They've got a couple standards in their lineup, including the County Line IPA, which is nice, lightly hoppy with a bigger malt character than expected (this winds up being a good thing in a market full of "hop it til it's nasty" beers). I also sampled their Croydon Cream Ale, a nice, light lawnmower beer. Not really my style, but it was tasty and much better than typical light lager fare. Their Tribute Tripel just might be my favorite of their brews, a great take on the style. Filled with fruity esters, sweetness, and plenty of spice from the yeast (clove), it comes off as being well balanced, but still big and delicious, just like a Tripel should be (in the B+ to A- range of my ratings, I think). According to their tank board (pictured above), they've got some sort of Hefeweizen coming too.

But the beer that everyone's talking about is Leon... also known as the 'Smore beer. Yep, it's an imperial stout brewed with baker's chocolate, marshmallow fluff, and crumbled graham crackers. They've made a couple of test batches of the stuff, but it turns out that what I got was the first full batch (and probably the last we'll see of it this year - big beers like this tend to use up an inordinate amount of resources for small breweries). Knowing I wanted a closer look at this one, I got a growler of it and have been sipping my way through it for most of the weekend. At 11.6% ABV, it's big and burly, but the alcohol is pretty well hidden. Ah well, there goes my glycemic index. Let's take a closer look:

Neshaminy Creek Leon - Pours a deep, dark black color with a finger of dense tan head. Nice retention too, plenty of lacing as I drink. Smells strongly of chalky roasted malts, maybe some coffee character, but also a sorta light sweetness in the nose as well. Taste is again dominated by those roasted malts, coffee flavors, and maybe just a hint of dark chocolate. Nowhere near as sweet as I'd expect, but it's not super bitter either. As it warms (or perhaps as my palate adjusts to the roastiness), the coffee goes away and chocolate emerges more. I have to admit, I don't get any real 'smore flavor here, but that don't mean it's not good. I know it's obnoxious to tell a brewer stuff like this, but for a smore beer, I'd love to get more in the way of caramelized sugar flavors and less in the way of roastiness. Mouthfeel is heavy, but smooth, with plenty of tight carbonation. It's a sipper to be sure, but the booze isn't as pronounced as I'd expect in a 11.6% ABV beer. Very well hidden. Overall, a solid imperial stout. Not quite the beer I was looking for, but I'm sure it will make stout fanatics happy... B

Beer Nerd Details: 11.6% ABV from growler. Drank out of a snifter on 8/25/12. Beer was apparently kegged on 8/24/12, so it's about as fresh as possible.

I'm curious to see how Leon evolves over time. According to the brewer, this one came in a little lighter than their test batches, and they've also reserved a bunch to age in Bourbon barrels. This excites me to no end, as bourbon barrel aging tends to temper the big roast and coffee flavors in a beer like this while adding a touch of sweetness and complexity from the oak. This sounds quite exciting. Otherwise, I'm going to be on the lookout for their Tribute Tripel, which I think was my favorite of their beers. While I was there, I heard talk of wild yeast and other barrel aging stuff, which sounds exciting. They're mostly only on tap right now, but I believe they do some limited bottling of their brews too. Definitely a brewery to keep an eye on...

No Limp Bizkit¹ references here. This blog is classy. Sorta.

My assumption was that the name of this beer was a reference to Chinook hops and that this would be one of them highfalutin single-hop experiment glorifying this particular varietal. However, upon closer inspection of the bottle's beer nerd stats, it appears that Chinook is but one of four hops. Perhaps this is for the best. I've never used Chinook before, but from everything I've read, it's got an intense bitterness and overpowering flavor profile (apparently very piney and resiny). This beer apparently had four hop additions along with some dry hopping, so let's see how it turned out:

Full Pint Chinookie IPA - Pours a cloudy, darkish orange color with a finger of tight white head and some lacing as I drink. Smells of equal parts citrus and pine, with a heaping helping of floral hop notes as well. Taste has a nice balance between sweetness and bitterness, there's a definite but small presence of crystal malts, and while the hop flavors (roughly matching the composition of the aromas) are light, there's certainly enough to make this an interesting brew. Mouthfeel is light to medium bodied, with ample tight carbonation, and a dry finish. Overall, a solid IPA that'd probably make a nice go-to for the locals in Pittsburgh. It's not a remarkable beer, but it works. B

Beer Nerd Details: 6.2% ABV bottled (12 oz.) Drank out of a tulip glass on 8/11/12. Hops: Magnum, Warrior, Chinook, and Centennial. IBUs: 103.1. Lot 210, best by Feb 2013.

Full Pint continues to be an interesting PA brewery (Pittsburgh area, if I remember correctly) - Rye Rebellion was quite a solid entry, and there are plenty of other beers on their roster that I'd like to check out.

¹ - True story: I booed Limp Bizkit off stage once (they were opening for Faith No More, a band I actually like). Not, you know, by myself, but as a willing participant. We didn't have torches and pitchforks, but we got the job done. It was a proud moment.

Sometimes I'm a little dismayed at how often I rate things a B+ or higher. Ratings are ultimately a fickle, subjective thing, but lately, it seems like I've been handing out an awful lot of A- scores. I'm still pretty strict with the A and A+ ratings (maybe even too strict when it comes to that most hallowed of rating), though I certainly encounter my fair share of those as well. Conversely, it's pretty rare that a beer ever gets anything in the C range, let alone lower.

Now, obviously I don't go out of my way to drink bad beers or things I know I won't like, but I also don't want to succumb to the hype machine or get locked into poor heuristics. So when I encounter a beer that I assume I'll love, but don't, I'm actually a little reassured. I mean, it sucks, but they can't all be home runs. So here's a couple beers I was very disappointed with recently.

Boulevard Double Wide IPA - I kept hearing good things about about these Boulevard Smokestack Series beers, so on a recent beer hunt, I picked up a couple. Pours a golden amber color with tons of fluffy head. Smells of big, juicy American hops, plenty of citrus and pine. Taste also smacks of citrus and pine hops, with a well matched malt backbone and a bitter finish. Actually, that finish also has a bit of a boozy bite to it too. It's not huge, but it definitely detracts from the experience... The mouthfeel is highly carbonated with a medium body and plenty of that booze. Overall, a rather straightforward DIPA, but far from world beater. It's not bad, per say, and I'm sure I would enjoy sucking a few of these back, but it's not something I'd ever really go out of my way for. B

Beer Nerd Details: 8.5% ABV bottled (12 oz.) Drank out of a tulip glass on 8/4/12. Bottle sez: Best By 01/27/13.

Not a terrible first at bat for Boulevard, but not a particularly impressive one either. On my scale, it's not that hard to get to that B+ rating with a DIPA. I've got their Sixth Glass quad sitting around too, so we'll see what that one does for me.

Birrificio Montegioco Dolii Raptor - Calvados Barrel Aged - If you read this blog, you know my affinity for barrel aged beers. This one, a Belgian style aged in Calvados (apple brandy) barrels made by one of them up-and-coming Italian craft brewers seemed right up my alley. Plus, look at the cute little raptor on the bottle. Who doesn't love raptors? Alas, it was not to be: Pours a pale orangish brown color with minimal head. Smells of barrel aged booze (obviously the Calvados coming through), with perhaps some musty, funky Belgian yeast as well. There is, perhaps, a hint of a sour twang in the nose, and that hint of funk appears in the taste as well. It's not that pronounced, which makes me wonder if it was intentional. The taste is sweet and very boozy, presumably due to the Calvados aging. The twangy tartness becomes a little more prominent as I drink, and not in a particularly good way. Mouthfeel is surprisingly light for such a beer, reasonably well carbonated to start, but fading off into slickness in the finish. This beer feels a little... sloppy and unbalanced. There's definitely some sort of infection going on here. Some brewers do this intentionally with their barrel aged stuff, but let's just say that these guys ain't no Vinnie Cilurzo. Somehow, I'd rather drink this than most macros, but that's a pretty low bar to clear. I finished the bottle, but I wasn't too happy about it. C-

Beer Nerd Details: 8.5% ABV bottled (11.2 oz.) Drank out of a snifter on 8/4/12. Bottle sez: Brewed in 2009 (so perhaps this was just past its shelf life?)

Yeah, so let's just say that 8/4 wasn't the most exciting of nights for me when it came to my beer selection. I did have a second bottle of Dolii Raptor that was apparently aged in different kinds of barrels, but it was pretty much the same thing. Maybe a little more sour, but just as sloppy and unbalanced. I'm not really sure what the difference really was - Beer Advocate has one classed as a Belgian Strong Dark, and the other as Belgian Strong Pale, but they were pretty much identical in appearance. So who the heck knows with those things. Not a particularly good first impression of the nascent Italian craft brewing scene, though obviously I can't hold a single example up as indicative of the whole movement. I'm sure I'll try a few others soon enough...

Anywho, don't you worry about me. I'll be back to posting A-level scortchers in no time.

Tired Hands is the brainchild of Jean Broillet IV and his wife Julie Foster. Jean began as a homebrewer, but quickly turned professional, starting at Weyerbacher Brewing Company where he learned the ins-and-outs of the brewing business. Eventually he moved on to the Iron Hill Brewpub in West Chester, PA (just down the road from me) and it was there that he fell in love with the brewpub model. After several years, he set plans in motion for his own brewpub, eventually landing in Ardmore, PA.

The greater Philadelphia area is home to numerous breweries, but few seem to inflame the passions of the Beer Advocate set (this isn't to say they're not any good, but that's a topic for another post). Tired Hands looks to be a local brewery that will join the rarified few that amaze beer dorks like myself. Drawing inspiration from the farmhouse brewers of France and Belgium and the heavy handed hop-heads of the US, Tired Hands has already made a splash, just a few short months after opening their doors in June, 2012. Just to give you an idea of how well their launch has gone, they've already collaborated with the insanely popular Hill Farmstead on a couple of beers, which naturally brought many beer nerds to attention (the first time I heard of Tired Hands was at the Hill Farmstead event during Philly Beer Week). Being a fool (or perhaps just because my liver wasn't up to the task), I didn't get to try that collaboration.

But all is not lost, as they're a reasonable hop and skip away, and I've lately thought it would be interesting to take a look at the smaller brewers of the area. And Tired Hands is indeed quite tiny, focusing on small batch brews (their website sez they make twelve-keg batches) and uber-local foodstuffs. It's not quite a full-blown restaurant, but they offer a nice selection of fresh baked bread, local artisanal cheeses, and charcuterie. Which, quite frankly, is enough for me!

Duck Prosciutto

But what about the beer? I hear you, dear reader, so let's do this thing:

Tired Hands Single Hop, Saison (Simcoe) - As if saisons couldn't get more weird, here we have a traditional sweet and spicy saison liberally hopped with juicy American Simcoe varietals. Pours a cloudy, bright straw yellow with two fingers of pillowy head. Smell is full of piney simcoe and some fruity citrus, with a tiny, spicy Belgian yeast influence. Taste starts sweet and spicy (white pepper?), like a proper Saison, but then that simcoe pine and citrus hits, leading into a very dry, bitter finish. As it warms up, the Simcoe undergoes a bit of a transformation, with an herbal earthiness emerging into the fray. Mouthfeel is lightly carbonated, a little spicy kick, but ultimately smooth and compulsively drinkable. Overall, this is a superb blending of styles that I wouldn't have expected to work anywhere near this well. A-

Beer Nerd Details: 5% ABV on tap (8 oz). Drank out of a wine glass on 8/18/12.

One of the nice things they do at Tired Hands is allow you to get small 4 ounce samplers, which allowed me to get a much broader view of their available brews. Of course, I'm sure there are some beer nerds who will scoff at 4 ounces being enough beer with which to judge, so I guess take it with a grain of salt. For me, 4 ounces is probably the minimum amount, but enough. Whatevers, let's drink some beers:

Tired Hands Hop-A-Tact (glass on the right) - Pours a copper color with a finger of head. Smells of bright fruity hops, some pine, and some sort of malt that I can't quite place. Taste also has that mysterious malt character (looking at their site after the fact, I see that this is brewed with oats, Victory malt, and a touch of black wheat malt - hardly typical IPA material) along with plenty of citrus and pine from the hops and a light bitterness in the finish. Straightforward medium body mouthfeel, not quite quaffable, but it goes down easy enough. Overall, a very solid,interesting take on the IPA, if not quite a face melter. B+

Beer Nerd Details: 7% ABV on tap (4 oz). Drank out of a mini-pint glass thingy on 8/18/12.

Borage Saison (glass on the left) - I've never heard of Borage before, but hey, why not brew a saison with mystery herbs? Pours a bright, cloudy yellow color with a finger of white head. Smells of spicy, peppery Belgian yeast, with a hint of light fruit and herbs. Taste starts sweet and spicy before drying out as the taste proceeds. Hints of fruit and herbs emerge too. Mouthfeel is smooth with a little bit of a spicy bite. Overall a very nice, complex take on a more straightforward Saison style. B+

Beer Nerd Details: 7% ABV on tap (4 oz). Drank out of a mini-pint glass thingy on 8/18/12.

Tired Hands Mysterious Mood - Fermented and aged in old Chaddsford Winery barrels which, apparently, had contracted a small Brettanomyces infection. Music to a farmhous brewers ears. This one pours a slightly darker yellow than the other saisons, with a finger of light colored head. Smells of funk with just a hint of sour twang. Taste starts sweet, light spice, followed by a heaping helping of funk and some light sour twangyness. Mouthfeel is lightly carbonated and smooth. Overall a very nice take on a funky saison. B+

Beer Nerd Details: 5.1% ABV on tap (4 oz). Drank out of a mini-pint glass thingy on 8/18/12.

Tired Hands Deuce - A "Corn based hoppy brown ale", whatever that means. Pours a medium brown color (a bit light for something described as a brown ale) with a small, light colored, creamy head. Smells lightly hoppy, citrusy, some darkish malt (not roasty or anything like that, but not quite a brown ale either). Taste is sweet, with those darkish malts and nice citrus hop flavors without the bitterness. Mouthfeel is smooth, goes down easy, medium bodied. Overall a solid beer, but it's kinda struggling to find its identity. It kinda goes in a few different directions without really coming together. That being said, it's certainly an interesting effort and it went down easy enough, so there's that... B

Beer Nerd Details: 7.1% ABV on tap (4 oz). Drank out of a mini-pint glass thingy on 8/18/12.

Well, I can certainly see Tired Hands becoming one of my go-to local joints. I think they've done some limited bottling before, though I have no idea how often they're planning on doing that or if I'll ever get my hands on some. Given their tiny, local-based approach, I suspect bottles aren't going to be super common, but I'm definitely keeping an eye out. Well, this was a most enjoyable experience. I've already got a couple other local pubs/breweries on my radar, though I have no idea when I'll get to them...

Tonight was beer club, a meeting of beer minded individuals from my work who get together once a month to share good beer, a good meal, and good company! We typically congregate at a local BYOB, and this time we hit up Jimmy's BBQ. It's not gonna blow away folks used to spectacular BBQ, but for us unwashed Yanks, it was solid stuff, and quite frankly, our options for good BBQ up here are somewhat limited. As usual, a good time was had by all, and we had quite a nice selection of beers available:

(Click for bigger image)

For the sake of posterity, some thoughts on each beer are below. Naturally, these were not ideal conditions, but then again, what were you expecting? It's not like this BBQ place had a sensory deprivation chamber that would allow us to truly evaluate the beers in an objective fashion. And even if it did, that would take all the fun out of it. Stop being such a Nazi, dude! In any case, here's some impressions of each beer (in order of drinking, not necessarily the order of the picture above):

• Sly Fox Helles Golden Lager - Lager lover Paul brought a growler of this stuff, which made a nice starting beer for me. It's pretty standard golden lager stuff, perhaps a step above the typical BMC macro stuff. Not particularly my thing, but again, a nice start to the evening. B-
• Sixpoint Righteous Ale - An interesting take on the Rye beer, one that actually emphasizes the rye (as opposed to a lot of hopped up versions, which certainly have their own allure). There is a healthy hop presence, to be sure, but it leans towards the more European earthy, pungent, almost spicy character that actually complements the rye quite nicely. Really quite nice. I'd like to try this under better conditions, but for now, let's leave it at a very solid B+
• Kaedrin Simcoe IPA - My homebrewed IPA went over well, as usual, though I'm getting a little worried, as I only have a couple of these left. It is starting to show it's age a bit - much more piney than it's initial incarnation - though it's still quite nice. Definitely something I'm going to attempt to replicate sometime this winter. Solid B+ material here (maybe higher at it's peak).
• Kaedrin Trappist Tripel - This was my second batch of homebrew, well over a year and a half old. A tripel style beer, it definitely came in a little higher than expected at 9.5 to 10% ABV, and that booze certainly takes on a too-prominent position in the taste. Definitely too much of that fusel alcohol flavor in this one, though it's not completely overpowering. That being said, it was an interesting beer to try in the beer club setting, and I actually think the age is doing it some favors. Perhaps another year will mellow this thing out a little more? I've got about a dozen of these things left, so I think we've got plenty of time to find out. For now, I'll say B- or B
• Weihenstephaner Hefeweissbier - Full disclosure, this thing had been sitting in my fridge for well over a year, and whatever you may think, a 5.4% ABV wheat beer isn't exactly aging material. That being said, it was fine, though in the context of beer club, it was kinda overshadowed by other stuff we drank... When fresh, I gave it an A-, and I think it still remains one of my favorite Hefeweizens...
• Firestone Walker Wookey Jack - A beer many of my fellow blogging travelers have been enjoying, and I have to say, I see what they're talking about! Of course, it's no Society and Solitude #2, but as Black IPAs (or Cascadian Dark American Black whatevers you want to call it) go, it's a solid, perhaps even top tier entry. Very nice pine tree nose, with a taste that is more hops than roast, but with both elements present and prominent. Apparently also made with Rye, which adds something different to the mix, but which I wasn't really looking too strongly for... It's a beer I'd love to try again sometime, but for now, B+ it is! Thanks for bringing this one Danur!
• Duck Rabbit Porter - Um, well, yeah, it's a porter! As the style goes, it's a solid entry, though it's not something that wowed me like, say, Everett. Still, I'm sure it could fill in for my go-to cigar beer, Founders Porter. Duck Rabbit is most certainly a brewery I need to familiarize myself with further though. B
• Russian River Supplication - So I really enjoyed this the last time I had it, and I've been trying to experiment with sours at Beer Club, so I brought this one, and hoo boy... I absolutely adored this beer this time around. Not sure if it was because my palate had already been exercised by the BBQ and preceding beers, or if I just got a particularly good bottle (Batch 7) this time around, but man, this thing was spectacular. Fellow beer club peeps were also blown away by this beer, and I could hardly blame them. It really was quite eye opening, and it stood right up to the strong flavors we'd already been imbibing for a bit. I have to say, this time around, the sourness was less pronounced and better integrated into the beer, which took on more of an oak aged character. It's something I'm going to have to revisit again sometime soon. I give it an upgrade to an A right now, but honestly, if I get another bottle that's this good, it could vault itself up into the hallowed A+ pantheon.
• DuClaw Soul Jacker - A blend of DuClaw's Black Jack stout and their most excellent Devil's Milk barleywine. Indeed, that barleywine character, full of hop flavors (but not a lot of hop bitterness), dominated the taste. There was a very light roastiness, which added some interesting complexity. I really enjoyed this, but it also sorta made me crave the regular old Devil's Milk barleywine. I'll give it a B+ and leave it at that.

Phew! I think this may be one of the best rated beer clubs evar! Only one real B-, and that's not a particularly poor rating. Usually, despite all the fun we have, there's at least something in the C or D range, if not an outright F (apparently someone forgot to bring a 3 year old San Miguel lager, smuggled from the Phillipines, that they've been meaning to get rid of - this surely would have opened some eyes in a bad way, but I guess we'll have to wait for next beer club for that... experience). Not that I'm complaining (about this gathering or, for that matter, previous gatherings with not so great beer - it's not like I have to drink a ton of bad beer or anything!). As always, I'm already anxiously awaiting the next beer club meeting!

Oh yeah, I should mention, we actually didn't get to all the beers in the pic above because we're not all total alcoholics, you know? I did manage to take home the Duck Rabbit Milk Stout though, so I'm sure you'll get to hear about that at some point...